Ep. 208: Language: The Bridge Between a Noisy World and a Stable Mind

00:00:00: Welcome to EANcast, your weekly source for education research and updates from the European Academy of Neurology.

00:00:14: Hello!

00:00:14: And welcome to the EANCast Weekly Neurology.

00:00:18: My name is Elisa Cano.

00:00:20: I am a neuropsychologist and researcher at the San Rafael Hospital in Milan.

00:00:32: My research focuses on the structural and functional correlates of cognitive and behavioral features in neurodegenerative disorders.

00:00:42: This month's topic is The Interaction between Language & Motor System, And In todays episode we will talk about language, the bridge between a noisy world and stable mind!

00:00:59: is a full professor and medical director of neurology at the University Medical Center in Freiburg.

00:01:09: An internationally recognized expert in stroke, cognitive neuroscience his work has advanced our understanding of brain reorganization and neural architecture of language.

00:01:23: Welcome Professor Weiler!

00:01:25: Thank you for joining us today.

00:01:28: Well thank you Eliza.

00:01:29: I'm really flattered by your introduction.

00:01:33: Nice to see you.

00:01:34: And let's start, this is a very interesting topic.

00:01:39: how does the brain interact with environment?

00:01:45: Yeah it's really a tricky question Elisa and my group of myself many other people thought about for quite long time.

00:01:54: I mean the key questions.

00:01:57: we are in a dynamic noisy environment which completely changes every second around us.

00:02:05: And still we have rather stable, invariant internal concepts that should be flexible but we still have them inside independent of what happens outside from us.

00:02:20: So how does the brain transform this dynamic sequence in an external world into a stable internal concept?

00:02:28: and how to make those concepts communicable.

00:02:31: That's actually the question!

00:02:33: We perceive the external world through our senses as sequences, speech unfolds as a sequence of sounds syllables words.

00:02:48: The brain encodes these spatial percepts as vectors or trajectories And motor output relies on the sequential activation of muscle groups in articulation, gesture and action.

00:03:02: What we know is that the so-called daughter pathway which includes the arcot fascicle between heard speech sounds and articulatory sequences.

00:03:29: This means the dorsal pathway is closely linked to the external world, which is time-dependent – its interface!

00:03:38: Or in one sentence… The world reaches a brain as sequences... ...the brain must transform them into stable structures for thought & action.

00:03:52: Very interesting Is this the same capacity used for recursivity, counterfactual thought imagery and also embodiment?

00:04:08: Well... The dorsal pathway is not sufficient.

00:04:12: It's true that offline simulations with sensory motor networks in motor imagery have the same structure as online.

00:04:28: So that's true, you require the total pathway for offline simulations.

00:04:34: But what all these capacities require is a detachment from immediate sensory context.

00:04:45: Recursion embeds structures with structures, counterfactual thoughts about things which are not present and imagery activates internal representation without direct input.

00:05:00: So for this you need an internal closed loop within the brain, something which is able to leave the sequences move forth and back with out any external drive or external inputs.

00:05:20: For these you also need control You need selection.

00:05:27: All of that has been done internally, and this is not sufficient with the dorsal pathway alone.

00:05:34: So in the end we propose a three-parted structure And I will explain it later on.

00:05:42: We have an dorsial pathway which are used for sequences when you have to relate items based on structure.

00:06:05: And these two pathways join into hubs anatomical regions where they're both ending and in this hub the true distinct processing streams, the analysis of sequences for the external world to control, select and abstract these internal sequences without any external input.

00:06:43: So what you need for detachment from the immediate sensory context is an internalization.

00:06:49: You have to internalize what you do externally.

00:06:52: For this you will need a closed loop in your brain which is able to perform this internalization internally.

00:07:00: The dual loop model with the dorsal and ventral pathways, perhaps in the frontal cortex of the posterior cortex.

00:07:06: it's actually a nice thing that allows you these internalizations.

00:07:11: Yes, recursivity counterfactual thought imagery has something in common which is detachment from immediate sensory context.

00:07:25: you require a structural analysis in conjunction with the sequential analysis, and then close loop into brain.

00:07:33: This was very complicated, Elisa.

00:07:35: Sure!

00:07:37: So if you capitalize on the hub feature why is this so important for these mechanisms?

00:07:45: Well... The hub features one thing as I've just said yet only when there's a hub feature getting closed-loop inside of your brain And the other thing is cognition emerges from interaction.

00:08:02: And cortical regions are not isolated functional modules, but in association cortex at least these are interaction hubs, convergence zones of diverse processing streams.

00:08:20: So when you go to language You goto the lateral ventral premotor cortex.

00:08:26: And the lateral ventral p-motor cortex is a junction point of the dorsal stream sequences with the frontal ascent tract, which connects to the SMA for initiation and timing.

00:08:41: So through this conjunction in the lateral p motor cortex we are able to produce a timely adequate production.

00:08:56: So, it gives you the initiation and the timely correct sequences of sounds for articulation.

00:09:06: Or as we said before, in fear of hundred gyros and middle temporal gyrus somebody called it broker another one call it Wernicke about a hundred fifty years ago are two regions which form the hubs along dorsal and mental pathways.

00:09:29: This is what actually the Greek word syntax means, order together.

00:09:36: so they are required for syntax.

00:09:40: now What we have left out so far?

00:09:42: Are the concepts?

00:09:45: yeah

00:09:46: And for these abstract concepts Karen Patterson.

00:09:49: but Laminal proposed a hub-and-spoke model with your anterior temporal lobe as a humble hub with the highest hierarchical features.

00:10:00: Now, in the hub and spoke model you have the idea that all information from the posterior association cortex visual auditory temporal information is not only integrated but it's transformed into an abstract entity or concept.

00:10:21: Now we think this is mediated by the middle longitudinal fascicle.

00:10:25: The middle longitudinal farcical, what you like to call in future the Coral pathway connects all of information from the posterior association cortex down to the anterior temporal lobe.

00:10:41: This means that I have here a hub called an amortel hub.

00:10:50: Well, this is not the hub as we understand it.

00:10:53: I said before hubs must be convergent zones of large association tracks.

00:11:00: Now the anterior temporal lobe is not only connected along the middle longitudinal fascicle but also along the oncunate fascicle with the inferior frontal gyrus.

00:11:12: and then you come again to the ability for a structural relation.

00:11:19: So when you combine the ventral pathway with a chordal pathway, You combine the abstraction ability versus structural relation.

00:11:31: And that is what's needed for concepts.

00:11:33: Concepts are hierarchically organized and for hierarchy... ...you need a structure-relation which is independent of moment, independent position in sequence.

00:11:46: The ventral pathway has double use.

00:11:47: It's used together with dorsal pathways for formal syntax, green ideas sleep furiously while it's used together with the semantic features of the chordal pathway abstract invariant concepts, you need a tree-parted structure.

00:12:29: You need the dorsal pathway for sequences... ...you need the caudal pathway of semantic features and in between we have a path where it is able to relate elements based on structures independent from their position or sequence.

00:12:46: that enables hierarchy and invariance.

00:12:49: structure.

00:12:50: These are the three streamlines.

00:12:54: And these streamlines had to come together in the convergence hubs by chance, this is ironic... By chance they're classical language zones.

00:13:04: Broker, Wernicke and Antioch Temple Lobe which isn't a classical language area but it's really required for conceptual thought.

00:13:14: The hub is very important because convergence One thing which the human brain does especially good.

00:13:23: It brings together processing streams, I'm not saying that chimpanzees cannot do this but we are probably very good at it.

00:13:32: so convergence is really a hallmark Not specific or exclusively by the hallmarks of the Human Brain.

00:13:42: So haps are important.

00:13:46: Very interesting Cornelius.

00:13:48: How many haps?

00:13:50: We have in this circuit, so there are three understand correct and we all of us at the same hubs.

00:13:59: The same number.

00:13:59: what about if I am multilingual?

00:14:06: Yeah it's not only is a multi lingual its that these model is definitely not language specific.

00:14:15: okay

00:14:16: So you ask me or now they aren't your time below as linguistic and non-linguistic concepts.

00:14:25: As we all know, the inferior frontage errors are required to compare entities doesn't matter what it is though most likely when there's a specificity at all should be in posterior parts of brain.

00:14:44: It seems likely that the middle temporal gyrus, which is close to the superior temporal gyerus... ...is specialized for auditory stuff.

00:14:53: The super-marginal gyrs seem more related to technical reasoning and to steric tool by in tool use.

00:15:03: it's very common For reading.

00:15:05: you probably need more posterior areas By lingual brains.

00:15:11: there are of course Well, diverging ideas as you know whether it's in the left hemisphere on different parts of MTG and STG or also to write hemisphere.

00:15:23: You have these structure in both hemispheres that are interconnected.

00:15:26: they're interconnected in the posterior and other interrupts between EFG here case-of language and MTG but MTG is really relatively language specific while more parietal areas are used in these spatial processing and SMG, supermartinal gyros.

00:15:47: So it's not specific at all.

00:15:49: you also know that music uses the same network I think.

00:15:53: ability to translate between sequences into space or time and space an abstract concept is on basis of most cognitive Thoughts, these hubs are also involved in the default mode network and the multi-plural map network.

00:16:14: And the theory of mind that work is all this.

00:16:17: religions.

00:16:18: All these what we call functions rely more or less into various degrees an extent on a same basic structure with the same tripartite structure.

00:16:31: just one thing I wasn't perhaps entirely yes really broke up then again RTL Yes But you also have the STBZ, the superior temporal gyrus.

00:16:39: This is an interaction of the dorsal with the caudal stream for retrieval of phonemes and as I said it's a interaction between the lateral premotor cortex for articulation.

00:16:53: Out of curiosity which is role in the right hemisphere?

00:16:59: I mean, we are thinking it's not just about language.

00:17:03: This circuit is important for the translation of sequences and time in abstract concept.

00:17:13: but which is the role of the right hemisphere?

00:17:15: Okay

00:17:16: so this isn't my topic now because i'm really getting a slippery surface.

00:17:24: The same system seems to be very important for neglect.

00:17:30: And while the dorsal right pathway is more involved in extinction, the ventral pathways seem quite important in neglect.

00:17:44: and on this ventral pathway please note I mean connection between frontal lobe and posterior lobes.

00:17:52: I'm not talking about a rental pathway which ends in anti-attempt below.

00:17:57: This is what, it's original description at least of Mako where there was this frontal extension.

00:18:04: but many people now see the rental pathway ending an anti-attack blow.

00:18:08: This isn't what we think should be the cordial pathway in our words... Is that really important to have the frontal connection?

00:18:16: To have a frontal interaction with the dorsal pathway and the posterior texture?

00:18:21: And for neglect, this definitely is needed.

00:18:25: It's probably used in music as well.

00:18:29: it's not much use than tool use and to use your own you have the author password on the right hemisphere.

00:18:34: You don't need the rental pathway in two views?

00:18:39: What's the RTL in The Right Hemisphere really does?

00:18:42: I Don't know.

00:18:42: its not a semantic model hub.

00:18:45: It should be a conceptual hub.

00:18:48: Tim Shellis has worked on that.

00:18:50: No, the right hemisphere you see.

00:18:52: You're getting on a slippery surface.

00:18:54: but neglect definitely requires this same system.

00:18:57: or let's say when the system is damaged and you get neglected put it that way.

00:19:03: Let's move from single brain to social interaction.

00:19:08: so far we were dealing with a single organism.

00:19:12: imagine two organisms with the same capacity internal closed loop.

00:19:19: These two organism meet, what does it mean?

00:19:25: This is where language becomes social.

00:19:28: If two organisms can structure internal concepts into communicable sequences.

00:19:35: they can align their internal worlds.

00:19:38: They can communicate about absent objects The past the future possible world plans and social rules.

00:19:48: And this is where Daniel Doros' idea of language as an instruction for your imagination fits very well.

00:19:56: As I am citing here now, language allows collaborative computations and information that people did not experience together.

00:20:06: by instructing the imagination in another mind One brain can guide other brains to construct a mental representation.

00:20:21: Human advantage lies not in the individual brain power, but in the collective brains of our communities.

00:20:28: So we can develop a culture because we are teaching and accepting things from other people which we haven't experienced ourselves.

00:20:36: When two organisms with the same capacity meet language becomes a way for aligning internal words.

00:20:46: I use structured sequences or which I produce, to make you Elisa.

00:20:55: To construct a concept and image on the scenario in your own right!

00:21:01: And this is basis for what Asa said...for culture, for shared knowledge & for teaching.

00:21:09: We can do that because we share these same hubs?

00:21:13: Yeah The same neural system.

00:21:17: This takes awhile.

00:21:19: According to the data from Daniel Perani and Angela Federizzi, this develops.

00:21:26: And let Vygotsky actually say it's same a couple of years ago that these capacity has developed... ...and they develop in close loop just emerged around age between four and six at some time when people or kids are able too understand and produce complexer syntaxes, and then theory of mind develops.

00:21:50: So only when this closed loop is close which are quite as an extension of the archetypal cycle into the hub area in the frontal cortex And also to MTG Only when these loops are closed Then we develop this ability

00:22:04: This interaction between two organisms.

00:22:08: It works better if I'm familiar with another person or more familiar.

00:22:14: Anyway, we are any person.

00:22:21: I think this is a valid question.

00:22:23: Familiarity really something which it's mostly done by the dozer and cotter pathway through your three family of things that you can recognize as to require the winter pathway only when you have to make new associations.

00:22:44: Let me give an example.

00:22:46: When in the sentence, he found that key to her heart.

00:22:53: It's easy understand.

00:22:56: In the end she wanted to keep his car To scratch this car with a key.

00:23:03: so then you really have two makes.

00:23:05: it is a new relation.

00:23:07: This is not familiar and we have to make any relation between subjects between words The concept of the key and some.

00:23:16: so yes Familiarity gives you the high advantage of a rapid excess.

00:23:24: But if you lose your ability to make new connections, To Make New Relations.

00:23:32: You Lose The Ability for Generalization For Abstraction For Flexibility.

00:23:41: So Actually What Is Decisive To Survive In A Changing World?

00:23:47: And This Can Be A Stroke This can be Alzheimer's or slowly depressive aphasia.

00:23:53: This is to retain the ability of abstraction and generalization, so our prediction would be that for compensation in degenerative disease Or recovery from stroke.

00:24:10: these are structures which I really import besides the corticospinal tract your arm and so I think that these are the cognitive, well this is an atomic prerequisites which require you to cope with new situations.

00:24:29: So familiarity's nice and quick but it's unique more to survive.

00:24:37: What is difference between neuroscience understanding of internal abstract concepts?

00:24:44: And Wittgenstein proposal as rules of use embedded in our linguistic practice.

00:24:55: I think it's important that neurologists, at least and definitely behavioral neurologists should look at that.

00:25:03: Neuroscience tends to ask how are concepts represented?

00:25:09: In the brain we looked for distributed transmodal representations.

00:25:15: semantic hubs and new systems support abstraction.

00:25:20: Wittgenstein's view is very different.

00:25:23: He says or he thinks that concepts are not just internal mental objects, they're embedded in use shared practices familiarity and there have been rules to determine whether a word is used correctly or incorrectly.

00:25:42: And these concepts of public domain.

00:25:44: They are normative.

00:25:46: even Meaning depends on youth within the linguistic community.

00:25:52: The brain structures, internal concepts with communicable form and linguistic practice stabilizes shared meaning.

00:26:05: To understand that the meaning of a word means a lot to me requires an normative approach without... I mean you can value these as good or bad but it's its.

00:26:22: We know now what is Zoom conferences and we have to really

00:26:28: share

00:26:29: the concepts that are developed culturally.

00:26:34: Concept of freedom, concept of democracy, concept peace...

00:26:39: Just a final question about language specificity.

00:26:44: so it's this brain architecture in any way specific for language or not?

00:26:50: And if at all which parts may be reader language specific?

00:26:56: Yeah, I tried to answer this.

00:26:57: Previously these three-parted structure, Tautel went and called pathways in the brain of the long association tracts was in part presented by Dejurin already.

00:27:15: but this structure is every brain.

00:27:18: so almost on many cognitive domains must uses, they have nothing else that can use.

00:27:29: So we find this in our studies over and over again.

00:27:32: many different modalities.

00:27:36: there are slightly differences.

00:27:37: it depends on the tests used.

00:27:39: I mean test design often is more important than function you want to look at.

00:27:48: so when You would tell me, yes this is comprehension but there's also working memory and so on.

00:28:00: Well the most pronounced difference to these main network are frontal streamlines because it has multiple choice design.

00:28:12: you have to select or compare.

00:28:15: So the design of a test sometimes more decisive than function.

00:28:22: So this is one thing that we probably don't test for your specific functions.

00:28:27: Yes, of course these dual loop model supports action tool use music planning and relational cognition as domain general And it's really difficult to tell you at the moment what is specific.

00:28:39: I think a few hundred gyros in RTL and lateral promoter context definitely are domain general.

00:28:47: i Think posterior MTG is rather language-specific and proprietary areas are more specific for visual spatial tasks, which may include tool use on it.

00:28:59: And probably not so visual-spatial attention there either can show us the architecture of language when we look at the connections because looking at the connection is much better an easier provides to this underlying structure than And the classical language areas shouldn't be defected.

00:29:27: They remain important, but we should re-interpret them as convergence ups where anatomical pathways come together.

00:29:38: therefore they are able to integrate or combine processing abilities and in my mind And this integration allows thought to become communicable.

00:30:25: invariant concepts and that there are specific apps for that, specific for language but also specifically for abstract concept that not so related to languages.

00:30:40: So we're able order some dynamic word into sequences and custom knowledge And in this last part, we were able to understand which is specific for language and which probably not.

00:31:01: How can all these incredible structural connectivity with others also in the social interaction?

00:31:14: Thanks again Cornelius!

00:31:17: Do you have anything else to

00:31:21: add?

00:31:21: Thank you very much.

00:31:22: Elisa, it was really nice chatting with you and I think we should continue this discussion outside of the podcast.

00:31:28: Absolutely!

00:31:29: I'm ready for

00:31:31: that.

00:31:32: It has been a pleasure again to talk today.

00:31:36: This is an interesting topic And i would like also thank all our listeners For their attention.

00:31:47: See you soon at EIN.

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